MX-5 Miata Forum > Shifting Gears > Car Talk > manufacturers aren't listening, we want bigger vehicles.
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twowheeled
30th June 2020, 19:07
I sat inside my friends new F-150 ecoboost the other day. Strangely i've driven dozens of full size pickups for work but rarely ride shotgun or in the back seat. And each time I do, I'm struck by how comfortable and spacious the interior is, and even if I were to be morbidly obese I think I would still not want for more space.
The ride quality and refinement of current full size pickups also rivals most luxury vehicles I've ridden in. I still can't believe the total lack of road and suspension noise on a truck. With the way these are selling you would think the message to the manufacturers are clear, we don't really care about fuel economy or having a cumbersome large vehicle. We buy and use full size pickup trucks to use as daily drivers even if they will never tow or carry anything in the bed.
So this leads me to a question. Why does nobody make a full size van with the same level of development as a pickup? Minivans just don't cut it, full size SUV's don't offer the same interior space in their 3rd rows which are only good for children, and you have to crawl in the back. Why haven't full sized vans moved past the commercial interiors? Or make a unibody minivan a few inches wider, taller, and longer?
BetweenMiatas
30th June 2020, 19:09
I will pile on your rant to say that I sat in the back seat of everything that offered a 3rd row at the auto show last year, and none of them were comfortable for an adult.
That One Guy 2
30th June 2020, 19:15
Consumers have spoken: they want crossovers with plastic black cladding, powered by "instant gratification" turbocharged inline four engines.
They're selling several million per year. I see more people complaining new full-size trucks are too large, rather than the other way around.
look 171
30th June 2020, 19:26
People are always going to complain about something especially behind the key board. Yeah, this is the small car forum, so naturally the complain about large truck is deep in its roots. I have a crewcab 8' bed truck. We travel in it when possible. I have done the same trip in our Sienna, Which was a bit cramped. Taking the truck camping and some water water rafting in a few weeks. Its so much easier to pack then a van if you ask me. Firewood, BBQ or what ever people take with them can all go outside. toss it over the bed, drive off. After that, hose off the bed, done. A luxoboat van? Who's going to clean that? They all have their place in N America. Depending on what you want. Lux van can be had too. Just look at those Sprinter Vans? I rode in one some time ago with a bunch of people. Talking about party bus? It was clean, comfy and it even have a lil' restroom.
Red_5
30th June 2020, 19:31
We just got back from a 2 week camping trip in our ‘15 Sierra 1500 towing a 24’ travel trailer. The 4 of us, two adults, a teenage girl and 11 year old boy drove around 2,200 miles total. I was wishing for more room in the cab of the truck. I wish there was a bit of cargo room just behind the second row that was climate controlled. I have a rolling tonneau cover but there were times it was sunny and 115 degrees outside so I didn’t want anything I cared about in the bed of the truck.
Even though our trailer isn’t huge, it’s pretty heavy and even today’s full-sized SUV couldn’t tow it safely. My truck is a Max Tow and rated to tow 11,200 pounds, I think the most capable SUV is the Expedition at around 9,500 pounds. Most others are below 8,500. It’s a bummer GM discontinued they’re 3/4 ton Suburban.
look 171
30th June 2020, 19:34
We just got back from a 2 week camping trip in our 15 Sierra 1500 towing a 24 travel trailer. The 4 of us, two adults, a teenage girl and 11 year old boy drove around 2,200 miles total. I was wishing for more room in the cab of the truck. I wish there was a bit of cargo room just behind the second row that was climate controlled. I have a rolling tonneau cover but there were times it was sunny and 115 degrees outside so I didnt want anything I cared about in the bed of the truck.
Even though our trailer isnt huge, its pretty heavy and even todays full-sized SUV couldnt tow it safely. My truck is a Max Tow and rated to tow 11,200 pounds, I think the most capable SUV is the Expedition at around 9,500 pounds. Most others are below 8,500. Its a bummer GM discontinued theyre 3/4 ton Suburban.
Diesel.
Mine's a Duramax. Sucks fuel but it aint slowin' down for nothin'
Red_5
30th June 2020, 19:46
Diesel.
Mine's a Duramax. Sucks fuel but it aint slowin' down for nothin'
It would surprise me if the Duramax used more fuel than my 6.2 when towing and Ill upgrade at some point but on the trip I was really wishing for more climate controlled space. Obviously most items are in the trailer which stays reasonably cool because its well insulated. In a few years it wont matter because we wont have kids traveling with us. Id love a Duraburban but I just dont have the budget for one.
Shacolaid
30th June 2020, 20:07
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I do not want a larger vehicle than what I have. Right now the largest in the fleet is a 2011 Pilot. Did fine to and from NC for vacation. Packed right for 4 people and didn't even use the roof carrier.
I once said I would never, but we owned a 2002 Odyssey, and that was quite honestly the best long hauler I have ever driven. Honda made it sporty enough (Don't laugh, it was) to be an enjoyable every day driver and it had 4 captains chairs and a bench rear seat. Plus loading was a breeze and it had the roof rack. The only reason we moved it was because when the boys started playing hockey, I wanted something AWD for long road trips.
Do I miss not having a truck sometimes for hauling? Sure, but not enough to buy something bigger.
emptyminded42
30th June 2020, 20:47
I will pile on your rant to say that I sat in the back seat of everything that offered a 3rd row at the auto show last year, and none of them were comfortable for an adult.
Because those seats aren't made for an adult. How many people need to haul around more than 3-4 other adults at a time that aren't tour companies? Really don't see the use case for a third row for adults. And current minivans in their top trims are *really* nice places to be if you're in the first two rows.
The premise of the OP strikes me as totally odd.
Dartboy
30th June 2020, 20:53
My prediction is that full size vans will make a comeback when self-driving cars become fully operational. When the passenger can sit on a couch and play their Xbox on a 50" screen on the way to work. Until then, no one wants to sit over the front axle with an internal combustion engine pumping heat into their right knee
look 171
30th June 2020, 21:00
It would surprise me if the Duramax used more fuel than my 6.2 when towing and Ill upgrade at some point but on the trip I was really wishing for more climate controlled space. Obviously most items are in the trailer which stays reasonably cool because its well insulated. In a few years it wont matter because we wont have kids traveling with us. Id love a Duraburban but I just dont have the budget for one.
I've driven through Death Valley in the summer at 117 degrees and run the AC on 2 and still feel very comfortable. That was just my wife and myself. Going up to Lake Isabella, at 2 is usually enough even with the kids in the truck. Those ACs are very powerful in the large trucks. No matter if its 70 or 80, the fuel mileage hovers around 16 mpg. Sucks. City driving sucks, its about 12-13 without getting on the pedal. If I start to get the thing going, I bet it will dr0p down to 10-11 mpg. Dang it, is kit fun getting on the gas on this big old beast.
amazingjason
30th June 2020, 21:17
There are very few good options for a large family. We have four kids (teenagers) and sometimes a grandparent or two. We got a Metris because it has 8 full size seats, good cargo space behind the third row, higher weight capacities, and can tow 4,900 lbs. It does the job well.
Other options: We’ve had a 2005 Escalade ESV that was bigger on the outside and smaller on the inside. I prefer driving the Metris. Our 2006 Odyssey was nice to drive but couldn’t handle the weight we carry and tow and It only had four large seats. A Transit would barely fit in the garage and my wife hated it when we test drove it. The seats are not arranged well in the 8-passenger.
A used Metris would be a particularly good value for around $25,000, I think.
Jason
Jlj9a
30th June 2020, 21:25
Think auto stop/start. Manufacturers have no choice. Via regulations bureaucrats tell them what to build.
RADOne
30th June 2020, 21:38
This brings back a memory of the 80s with thousand of full size conversion vans roaming the plains. It wasn't a good memory.
twowheeled
30th June 2020, 21:46
There are very few good options for a large family. We have four kids (teenagers) and sometimes a grandparent or two. We got a Metris because it has 8 full size seats, good cargo space behind the third row, higher weight capacities, and can tow 4,900 lbs. It does the job well.
Other options: We’ve had a 2005 Escalade ESV that was bigger on the outside and smaller on the inside. I prefer driving the Metris. Our 2006 Odyssey was nice to drive but couldn’t handle the weight we carry and tow and It only had four large seats. A Transit would barely fit in the garage and my wife hated it when we test drove it. The seats are not arranged well in the 8-passenger.
A used Metris would be a particularly good value for around $25,000, I think.
Jason
that's exactly it, sometimes the grand parents need to come along, add a large dog, etc. The point is we have accepted that full size pickup is a manageable size for a lot of drivers lifestyles. But why does that size only have to come with a wasted empty box and extra ground clearance? If you only need to runabout on paved roads that is a lot of wasted space. There are plenty of small vehicles to choose from. We don't need another smart car or scion IA. My point is why don't they make something in the footprint of a full size truck in van form. Low floor, high ceiling, but big enough to fill with adults and luggage. I'm not talking about a sprinter van because those lack clearance to make it into parking garages. I mean a Nissan 3500 van with a modern interior.
https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/commercial/nv-passenger/features.html
Look at how hideous the inside of this thing is. Meanwhile the new F-150 will have fold flat front seating, built in generator, etc.
Gumpus
30th June 2020, 23:07
Here you go.
https://www.autoblog.com/buy/2020-Ford-Transit_150+Passenger/
But even though it fits in parking garages and has a crazy amount of room it does not have the total absence of road noise like a body on frame vehicle and I do agree that it's quite a treat to drive a vehicle with super low road noise.
Lanny Chambers
30th June 2020, 23:41
My neighbor recently swapped his Odyssey for a Mercedes Sprinter (civilian model with 3 rows, windows all around). He wanted more room. Not sure he realized up front that a Sprinter won't clear a normal residential garage door opening. It's freaking huge!
Red_5
30th June 2020, 23:42
Here you go.
https://www.autoblog.com/buy/2020-Ford-Transit_150+Passenger/
But even though it fits in parking garages and has a crazy amount of room it does not have the total absence of road noise like a body on frame vehicle and I do agree that it's quite a treat to drive a vehicle with super low road noise.
Unfortunately most of the vans have pretty poor tow ratings compared to trucks. Ive looked around for other options but unless you tow a small trailer, most vans will be pretty useless if you need to tow. The Nissan NV, if thats their big van, Im pretty sure has the best tow ratings. I was hoping theyd offer the V8 Cummins and 4wd from their truck but they discontinued the diesel entirely. You can have an aftermarket 4wd system installed though.
look 171
1st July 2020, 00:33
that's exactly it, sometimes the grand parents need to come along, add a large dog, etc. The point is we have accepted that full size pickup is a manageable size for a lot of drivers lifestyles. But why does that size only have to come with a wasted empty box and extra ground clearance? If you only need to runabout on paved roads that is a lot of wasted space. There are plenty of small vehicles to choose from. We don't need another smart car or scion IA. My point is why don't they make something in the footprint of a full size truck in van form. Low floor, high ceiling, but big enough to fill with adults and luggage. I'm not talking about a sprinter van because those lack clearance to make it into parking garages. I mean a Nissan 3500 van with a modern interior.
https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/commercial/nv-passenger/features.html
Look at how hideous the inside of this thing is. Meanwhile the new F-150 will have fold flat front seating, built in generator, etc.
Its not a waste depending who you ask. Its an absolutely waste when it isn't being used just like that second bathroom in your home. I haul my bikes, camping gear or some cabinets when the need arises. But its usually empty360 days out of the year. Its nice to have options.
Tell you this, when I can just swing something over the bed, jump in and go. That my friend, is worth its weight in gold. With my 4 runner or the sienna, I have to open up, move some a couple items ,fold the seats down, and load up what I need. Its usually my bicycle. Its not the end of the world, I just want to toss it over and drive off into the sunset. I love that empty bed.
To answer your question. The vans are out there, but people just aren't buying them. Appearance has lots to do with purchase. I think the pick up truck is ingrained in us here in N America. They aint popular in Europe or Asia. What's a high school student doing with a pickup truck? He should be in a van? You live in cowboy country, You know the answer.
jamesqf
1st July 2020, 00:35
You're asking this on a Miata forum?!?!?
Joe R
1st July 2020, 07:25
My neighbor recently swapped his Odyssey for a Mercedes Sprinter (civilian model with 3 rows, windows all around). He wanted more room. Not sure he realized up front that a Sprinter won't clear a normal residential garage door opening. It's freaking huge!
Hope he didn't find out the hard way.
Dry Martini
1st July 2020, 07:55
Here you go.
https://www.autoblog.com/buy/2020-Ford-Transit_150+Passenger/
But even though it fits in parking garages and has a crazy amount of room it does not have the total absence of road noise like a body on frame vehicle and I do agree that it's quite a treat to drive a vehicle with super low road noise.
310hp never felt so anemic. Having driven the cargo version, I would never own one of these vans.
Pat Dolan
1st July 2020, 09:51
I have those same thoughts every time I look into or sit in the back seat of a '30s sedan. They figured out that people had legs and spaced seating to allow them to fit. Even my favourite body hauler (Suburban) is challenged with a rear facing child seat behind a tall driver. I have to thank the blue oval for embarrassing everyone else with the F150 back seats a few years ago, since newer GMs now have some room there too. But, overall, NOBODY makes a proper 3 rows of full access for full size adults. If I had the time, I would start with a long box 3500 DMax, remove the box, stick on the bits of a Suburban from the behind the driver's door and have a 4 row, 6 door Sub that would come most of the way to the perfect people hauling tow monster. BTW: best bud has a new 3500 DMax and the fuel consumption blows my old 6.5 into the weeds. It uses barely more than our Q7 TDI.
twowheeled
1st July 2020, 09:54
Here you go.
https://www.autoblog.com/buy/2020-Ford-Transit_150+Passenger/
But even though it fits in parking garages and has a crazy amount of room it does not have the total absence of road noise like a body on frame vehicle and I do agree that it's quite a treat to drive a vehicle with super low road noise.
um yea, that proves my point exactly. Look at how that hideous thing is marketed. Here's a crew van for your jobsite or tour company, in applicance white complete with steel wheels. Once pickup trucks were moved more upscale they sold in droves to people who would otherwise not be seen in a 2wd stripper work truck with a column shifter and bench seat.
JT58
1st July 2020, 10:00
The manufacturer's are making bigger vehicles. Cars are dwindling away in favor of a sea of SUV's and big trucks. My Silverado is HUGE. I wanted a regular cab short bed 4 X 4 with a V8, GM does not make one any more. Ford does but the few regular cabs with V8's I found were a whopping 10K more than than the truck i bought. GM makes only long bed or the double or extra double cab- all are HUGE. I wanted a truck so I got the double cab and still getting used to the size. And it rides smoother than any other truck I ever had an possibly even any car I ever had.
What is interesting is the interior is huge too but in my truck's case (lack of telescoping steering), it's meant for a shorter, heavier person. I am thin and tall and with my customization of altering the seat height front and back and gas pedal I finally fit (barely). The steering wheel needs to be out another inch for me to be ideally comfortable. I confirmed this when I measured the distance from the gas pedal to the steering wheel n my 97 Wrangler to the Silverado and it is a whopping 2" less in the Silverado. I fit fine in the Wrangler- and even in the Miatas I had- now I have this huge truck and it is meant for smaller people- go figure. Same for the Tacoma- meant for shorter people.
MattAlley
1st July 2020, 10:03
Last October and again this March I led backpacking trips in Utah and California; 5 and 8 guys. We rented a 12 pax Ford at Vegas the first time and a 15 pax Ford at SLC the second. Same exact van, only with a 5th row in back, and therefore not nearly as well set-up for cargo (backpacks and suitcases.)
That is not an environment I'd want to spend a lot of time in for daily life. Fine for driving guys to the trailhead, but a bear to actually steer and brake (compared to modern vehicles), and an interior made of Utility Gray plastic requisitioned from a minimum security prison somewhere.
That said, I can't imagine needing to haul that many people regularly enough to own such a vehicle and pay for the niceness one gets in a $60,000 PU truck. I would guess outfitting such a van to the levels of a King Ranch F150 would cost you a hundred grand.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/z289/NoGaBiker/2003_Owl_Fish_Canyon_Dave_(1).heic
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/z289/NoGaBiker/2003_Owl_Fish_Canyon_(18).JPG
And yes, the guy in the first pic who would be towering over the van if he straightened up is pretty dang big. The "short guy" in the foreground is 6'2".
Gibgin
1st July 2020, 10:19
I'd really doubt even if you made vans look "nice" and market towards consumers they'd sell well.. especially with the younger generations growing older who already hate mini vans with a passion and even generally dislike wagons as it is.
Gibgin
1st July 2020, 10:26
We just got back from a 2 week camping trip in our 15 Sierra 1500 towing a 24 travel trailer. The 4 of us, two adults, a teenage girl and 11 year old boy drove around 2,200 miles total. I was wishing for more room in the cab of the truck. I wish there was a bit of cargo room just behind the second row that was climate controlled. I have a rolling tonneau cover but there were times it was sunny and 115 degrees outside so I didnt want anything I cared about in the bed of the truck.
Even though our trailer isnt huge, its pretty heavy and even todays full-sized SUV couldnt tow it safely. My truck is a Max Tow and rated to tow 11,200 pounds, I think the most capable SUV is the Expedition at around 9,500 pounds. Most others are below 8,500. Its a bummer GM discontinued theyre 3/4 ton Suburban.
Get a couple of oversized yeti coolers for under your tonneau cover and call it a day :D
YP515
1st July 2020, 10:30
And yes, the guy in the first pic who would be towering over the van if he straightened up is pretty dang big.
I'll take your word for it. :D
Skip Cannon
1st July 2020, 10:53
I have a '19 Ram 1500 quad cab with a topper on the back of its 6' 4" bed. This is my 4th Ram 1500 after having a Silverado.
This new one has active noise cancelling in the cab, eerily quiet inside, just a bit of tire noise and engine exhaust if you get on it. It rides better than pretty much anything I have driven for many years. It also corners better than it has a right to weighing 5,200 lb and riding on a high 4WD chassis.
Its main purpose is towing a Miata in an enclosed trailer and in that configuration and with the bed loaded with tools, parts and tires it will pull I-70 over the passes effortlessly at 80 MPH and still get 12 mpg. With 395 HP, 400+ lb ft torque it never feels strained.
I not longer have my own trailer so I rent one when needed. It is also my bad weather vehicle.
It barely fits in my attached two car garage. If I park a Miata in there with it the Miata has to be backed in to avoid door dings on both vehicles.
Each time I buy a new one I drive the Ford and Chevrolet equivalents but always come back to the Ram1500. I don't bother to drive the smaller pickups, I'm sold on the full size Rams.
Red_5
1st July 2020, 11:38
L
That is not an environment I'd want to spend a lot of time in for daily life. Fine for driving guys to the trailhead, but a bear to actually steer and brake (compared to modern vehicles), and an interior made of Utility Gray plastic requisitioned from a minimum security prison somewhere.
That said, I can't imagine needing to haul that many people regularly enough to own such a vehicle and pay for the niceness one gets in a $60,000 PU truck. I would guess outfitting such a van to the levels of a King Ranch F150 would cost you a hundred grand.
My neighbors just bought a customized Transit with a very high end leather interior and a big TV with gaming system to travel with their 4 kids and grandma. Id guess youre about right on price too but I dont know for sure.
There are a surprising number of 4wd Sprinters running around in my area these days too even in the school pickup line.
New Yorker
1st July 2020, 11:49
https://apple.news/AcId2o2NJRLyfO2Zpj06B1g
I think the trend towards larger and larger vehicles is most unfortunate and, frankly, with the exception of a few specific scenarios, largely unnecessary. Obviously, its very dangerous. It is one of the reasons I bought a Miata. To not just talk or complain about obscenely-sized vehicles, but to actually do something about it. To help set an example not just with words, but with action.
BGrigg
1st July 2020, 12:13
310hp never felt so anemic. Having driven the cargo version, I would never own one of these vans.
I work for a commercial repair shop that services a fleet of these and I say run, don't walk away. :eek:
01CryBlue
1st July 2020, 12:33
https://apple.news/AcId2o2NJRLyfO2Zpj06B1g
I think the trend towards larger and larger vehicles is most unfortunate and, frankly, with the exception of a few specific scenarios, largely unnecessary. Obviously, its very dangerous. It is one of the reasons I bought a Miata. To not just talk or complain about obscenely-sized vehicles, but to actually do something about it. To help set an example not just with words, but with action.
I've fit a gun safe, tool carts/boxes, freezers, and a myriad of other bulky things in my Mazda 3 hatchback. No need for a Peterbilt SUV for 99% of my day to day.
I can see the use in a pickup truck and have at times wished I had one to throw "messy" things like used car parts, sawhorses, wood, etc. However it'd be wasted as it'd be sitting in a garage for most of it's life from lack of use.
Save The Manual Wagons!
1st July 2020, 12:45
No need for a Peterbilt SUV for 99% of my day to day.
But it's the American Way! Bigger, fatter, dumber. And buying 3x more car than you need to commute back and forth to work and, oh, buy some mulch once every four years.
twowheeled
1st July 2020, 12:52
I've always filled up all the extra space in my old ridgeline. Since I was out doing something most weekends, the trunk was permanently filled with a tool box, folding chairs, small tent and camping gear, flat of water, camel pack, duffel bag of extra clothes, rain gear, boots, etc. In the winter time there would have to be a shovel, tow strap, emergency kit.
There are certain things I never want to move back and forth between the garage and the vehicle if there was enough room to leave them in the trunk.
In that same vein, there are a lot of families who would use the space, even though you can't fathom it. We were in florida visiting the inlaws last year, they had 3 kids and grandma, aunt/uncle lived down the street. Doing things together as a family always meant going out as a big group, to eat, to go to the beach, go visit other friends, etc. Even though they had a minivan and a 3rd row SUV we ended up driving ourselves in a rental too because we would always run out of space. Even 3 adults and 3 kids is tight in a minivan once you need the trunk for your cooler and chairs and stop on the way home to pick up groceries.
Lanny Chambers
1st July 2020, 13:03
I still say that, unless pretending you're the Marlboro Man is the only thing that keeps your fragile ego intact, if you don't need a truck more than once a month don't buy one--rent one as required. Fewer people care about your self-image than you might think.
New Yorker
1st July 2020, 13:09
I have a '19 Ram 1500 quad cab with a topper on the back of its 6' 4" bed. This is my 4th Ram 1500 after having a Silverado.
This new one has active noise cancelling in the cab, eerily quiet inside, just a bit of tire noise and engine exhaust if you get on it. It rides better than pretty much anything I have driven for many years. It also corners better than it has a right to weighing 5,200 lb and riding on a high 4WD chassis.
Its main purpose is towing a Miata in an enclosed trailer and in that configuration and with the bed loaded with tools, parts and tires it will pull I-70 over the passes effortlessly at 80 MPH and still get 12 mpg. With 395 HP, 400+ lb ft torque it never feels strained.
I not longer have my own trailer so I rent one when needed. It is also my bad weather vehicle.
It barely fits in my attached two car garage. If I park a Miata in there with it the Miata has to be backed in to avoid door dings on both vehicles.
Each time I buy a new one I drive the Ford and Chevrolet equivalents but always come back to the Ram1500. I don't bother to drive the smaller pickups, I'm sold on the full size Rams.
Obviously, pulling a trailer, regularly having to carry lots of stuff, many people these are the scenarios that warrant having a large vehicle. Alas, most who own one dont have those needs.
twowheeled
1st July 2020, 13:11
Obviously, pulling a trailer, regularly having to carry lots of stuff, many people these are the scenarios that warrant having a large vehicle. Alas, most who own one dont have those needs.
nobody has those needs really. You don't need to have a boat, horses, 4 kids, trailer and track toy, etc.
Brian Goodwin
1st July 2020, 13:19
I sat inside my friends new F-150 ecoboost the other day. Strangely i've driven dozens of full size pickups for work but rarely ride shotgun or in the back seat. And each time I do, I'm struck by how comfortable and spacious the interior is, and even if I were to be morbidly obese I think I would still not want for more space.
The ride quality and refinement of current full size pickups also rivals most luxury vehicles I've ridden in. I still can't believe the total lack of road and suspension noise on a truck. With the way these are selling you would think the message to the manufacturers are clear, we don't really care about fuel economy or having a cumbersome large vehicle. We buy and use full size pickup trucks to use as daily drivers even if they will never tow or carry anything in the bed.
So this leads me to a question. Why does nobody make a full size van with the same level of development as a pickup? Minivans just don't cut it, full size SUV's don't offer the same interior space in their 3rd rows which are only good for children, and you have to crawl in the back. Why haven't full sized vans moved past the commercial interiors? Or make a unibody minivan a few inches wider, taller, and longer?
Love the F150 turbo motors (2.7 and 3.5...both twin turbo V6 motors with a lot of torque). Must respectively dissent from the suggestion that the F150 belongs in the club with respect to 'ride quality and refinement of current full size pickups also rivals most luxury vehicles', when in fact the Ford has classic Leaf spring rear for now and if you even load 4 guys with gear to go to the mountains you will be quickly reminded that it is a truck with old school rear suspension. Interior has a ton of cheap hard plastics, and the stock F150 brakes are poor, nothing within miles of a good luxury car in terms of handling, braking, ride, interior quality, etc. The only selling point in my view for the F150 is the boosted engines in terms of torque and fun.
But Ford is giving the Raptor rear coil springs and we expect that will work down into the garden variety updated F150s and that will go a long way to close the gap to rivals like the RAM that have much nicer interiors as of today and much more modern rear suspension that rides and handles better than F150 (even before the factory air suspension option on the Ram which is likely the ultimate truck magic carpet ride currently).
As for the modern van having same level of refinement, as others have suggested we call it the SUV today and with 2 or 3 rows of seating the better choices leave the 2020 Ford F150 in the dust in terms of suspension refinement, interior material quality, braking and handling, etc. Nonetheless, we expect FORD to follow the RAM example and update the suspension and interior to better match the refinement of luxury cars and SUVs and the RAM trucks.
MattAlley
1st July 2020, 13:21
nobody has those needs really. You don't need to have a boat, horses, 4 kids, trailer and track toy, etc.
Nobody needs a car in the first place; hundreds, perhaps thousands of people lived without one as late as the 19th Century.
Of course, they all died, so maybe you're onto something...
New Yorker
1st July 2020, 13:24
nobody has those needs really. You don't need to have a boat, horses, 4 kids, trailer and track toy, etc.
Lol, that’s a different discussion. Personally, I think people who choose to have those things should be able to own a vehicle that can accommodate them. It’s the couple who don’t have those things yet insist on driving a big ass vehicle that are a real menace.
emptyminded42
1st July 2020, 13:29
...In that same vein, there are a lot of families who would use the space, even though you can't fathom it. We were in florida visiting the inlaws last year, they had 3 kids and grandma, aunt/uncle lived down the street. Doing things together as a family always meant going out as a big group, to eat, to go to the beach, go visit other friends, etc. Even though they had a minivan and a 3rd row SUV we ended up driving ourselves in a rental too because we would always run out of space. Even 3 adults and 3 kids is tight in a minivan once you need the trunk for your cooler and chairs and stop on the way home to pick up groceries.
So once a year maybe you could actually use a vehicle to haul more than 6 people and their stuff, even though getting a rental car is easy, cheap, and more flexible? I really don't see a consistent use case for a huge van that can carry 2+3+3 AND significant cargo. If a minivan doesn't work because of not enough cargo, what about a Suburban?
MattAlley
1st July 2020, 13:30
Lol, that’s a different discussion. Personally, I think people who choose to have those things should be able to own a vehicle that can accommodate them. It’s the couple who don’t have those things yet insist on driving a big ass vehicle that are a real menace.
Really? I'd think they'd be less of a menace; I'd rather get hit by a couple of small people in a Tahoe than by a couple of people in a Tahoe with their three kids and two grandparents, towing a 30' trailer with a boat behind it.
Dry Martini
1st July 2020, 13:39
Lol, thats a different discussion. Personally, I think people who choose to have those things should be able to own a vehicle that can accommodate them. Its the couple who dont have those things yet insist on driving a big ass vehicle that are a real menace.
Do tell. How so?
People in big ass vehicles dont even bother me. What does bother me are people with poor driving skills, and most of them tend to be in small econoboxes. :bang:
twowheeled
1st July 2020, 13:48
So once a year maybe you could actually use a vehicle to haul more than 6 people and their stuff, even though getting a rental car is easy, cheap, and more flexible? I really don't see a consistent use case for a huge van that can carry 2+3+3 AND significant cargo. If a minivan doesn't work because of not enough cargo, what about a Suburban?
That's what I'm talking about. The suburban doesn't give you more interior space. It assumes you require ground clearance and raises the floor of the vehicle unnecessarily, forcing you to crawl to the 3rd row. I am talking about a minivan that is the same length width and height as your typical F-150/suburban. With the last row up, a minivan does not offer generous cargo space.
Edit: here we go. Standard minivan on the left, standard full size pickup in the middle, and my "full size minivan" to the right. Same height and length as the pickup allows you to fit adults into the 3rd row without crawling, and have a real trunk space. Still fits into underground parking garages. Still not a diesel sprinter or hideous ford transit.
MattAlley
1st July 2020, 13:49
That's what I'm talking about. The suburban doesn't give you more interior space. It assumes you require ground clearance and raises the floor of the vehicle unnecessarily, forcing you to crawl to the 3rd row. I am talking about a minivan that is the same length width and height as your typical F-150/suburban. With the last row up, a minivan does not offer generous cargo space.
Edit: here we go. Standard minivan on the left, standard full size pickup in the middle, and my "full size minivan" to the right. Same height and length as the pickup allows you to fit adults into the 3rd row without crawling, and have a real trunk space. Still fits into underground parking garages. Still not a diesel sprinter or hideous ford transit.
So there you go. Just buy the one on the right. Duh.
New Yorker
1st July 2020, 13:51
Really? I'd think they'd be less of a menace; I'd rather get hit by a couple of small people in a Tahoe than by a couple of people in a Tahoe with their three kids and two grandparents, towing a 30' trailer with a boat behind it.
You’ve utterly missed the point; a couple of people with no stuff shouldn’t have a Tahoe. (Of course, it’s perfectly legal for them to drive whatever they feel like, but seein’ as how other people – pedestrians, cyclists, babies in strollers, and folks driving Miatas – are on the very same roads, a Tahoe not doing heavy lifting is just, well… wrong. Legal but wrong. Assuming you find selfish choices that endanger others to be wrong. Alas, many ‘Mericans apparently don’t have a problem with that. “Hey, it’s not my baby. Not my wife. Not my kid. What do I care??”
https://jalopnik.com/suvs-are-28-percent-more-likely-to-kill-other-drivers-i-1838994674
https://www.aarp.org/auto/driver-safety/info-2018/suv-pedestrian-dangers.html
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/07/a-deadly-problem-should-we-ban-suvs-from-our-cities
emptyminded42
1st July 2020, 13:54
That's what I'm talking about. The suburban doesn't give you more interior space. It assumes you require ground clearance and raises the floor of the vehicle unnecessarily, forcing you to crawl to the 3rd row. I am talking about a minivan that is the same length width and height as your typical F-150/suburban. With the last row up, a minivan does not offer generous cargo space. .
I guess I really don't think that minivans need or offer more space based on my experience. Most of them the floor of the cargo area is a good 8-12 inches below the interior deck because the last row folds down into them for a flat floor. I've had 4 adults and a kid in a giant rear-facing car seat and crammed an absolute ton of cargo in for a 6 hour road trip with no issues. I suppose if you have very large and bulky cargo it could be a problem but soft-shell duffel bags solve that problem easily. There as also lots of room around the feet and aisle of the 2nd row captains chairs for stuff. Back in the day, my dad was an assistant Scoutmaster and were were able to haul 6-7 teenage scouts and their giant camping duffel bags all over the place without much problem. If we can handle 6 adults and their weekend camping gear, I think the cargo issue just isn't an issue for most consumers. Newer minivans are really space-efficient in the interior IMO.
MattAlley
1st July 2020, 13:55
You’ve utterly missed the point; a couple of people with no stuff shouldn’t have a Tahoe. (Of course, it’s perfectly legal for them to drive whatever they feel like, but seein’ as how other people – pedestrians, cyclists, babies in strollers, and folks driving Miatas – are on the very same roads, a Tahoe not doing heavy lifting is just… wrong. Assuming you find selfish choices that endanger others to be wrong. Alas, many ‘Mericans apparently don’t have a problem with that. “Hey, it’s not my baby. Not my wife. Not my family. What do I care??”
https://jalopnik.com/suvs-are-28-percent-more-likely-to-kill-other-drivers-i-1838994674
https://www.aarp.org/auto/driver-safety/info-2018/suv-pedestrian-dangers.html
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/07/a-deadly-problem-should-we-ban-suvs-from-our-cities
Yes, I guess I did miss your point, and still do. So you'd be okay getting crushed by the Tahoe drivers with a big trailer behind them and lots of people inside? Cuz you gave those folks a pass while condemning the other people who drive Tahoes. :dunno:
emptyminded42
1st July 2020, 13:57
You’ve utterly missed the point; a couple of people with no stuff shouldn’t have a Tahoe. (Of course, it’s perfectly legal for them to drive whatever they feel like, but seein’ as how other people – pedestrians, cyclists, babies in strollers, and folks driving Miatas – are on the very same roads, a Tahoe not doing heavy lifting is just… wrong. Assuming you find selfish choices that endanger others to be wrong. Alas, many ‘Mericans apparently don’t have a problem with that. “Hey, it’s not my baby. Not my wife. Not my kid. What do I care??”
https://jalopnik.com/suvs-are-28-percent-more-likely-to-kill-other-drivers-i-1838994674
https://www.aarp.org/auto/driver-safety/info-2018/suv-pedestrian-dangers.html
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/07/a-deadly-problem-should-we-ban-suvs-from-our-cities
Well, I mean most of the large vehicle drivers don't drive in urban areas very often - at least us out in the 'burbs don't. And I don't think it's in the best interest of the automotive enthusiast community to start telling others what kinds of cars people should and shouldn't have. Good luck justifying a tiny, impractical, pollution-spewing toy car like a Miata once you start telling DINKs and empty nesters they shouldn't be driving comfortable, capable vehicles like Tahoes. I guess everybody should be driving Bolts and Model 3s instead. After all they're all-electrical practical small sedans. What more could you want?
twowheeled
1st July 2020, 14:13
So there you go. Just buy the one on the right. Duh.
my preference would be the one based off the 3500 size. Because I like to keep my sports equipment in my trunk permanently and frequently roll out a sleeping bag in the back for camping trips.
twowheeled
1st July 2020, 14:16
But it's the American Way! Bigger, fatter, dumber. And buying 3x more car than you need to commute back and forth to work and, oh, buy some mulch once every four years.
hey don't beat yourself up too bad. A wagon is only slightly more unreasonable than a hatchback.
Mr.E.G.
1st July 2020, 14:22
Youve utterly missed the point; a couple of people with no stuff shouldnt have a Tahoe. (Of course, its perfectly legal for them to drive whatever they feel like, but seein as how other people pedestrians, cyclists, babies in strollers, and folks driving Miatas are on the very same roads, a Tahoe not doing heavy lifting is just, well wrong. Legal but wrong. Assuming you find selfish choices that endanger others to be wrong. Alas, many Mericans apparently dont have a problem with that. Hey, its not my baby. Not my wife. Not my kid. What do I care??
https://jalopnik.com/suvs-are-28-percent-more-likely-to-kill-other-drivers-i-1838994674
https://www.aarp.org/auto/driver-safety/info-2018/suv-pedestrian-dangers.html
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/07/a-deadly-problem-should-we-ban-suvs-from-our-cities
I'm willing to bet a goodly sum that even a cursory glance at your political or philosophical positions would reveal some degree of harm to other people that you're willing to incur.
New Yorker
1st July 2020, 14:43
I'm willing to bet a goodly sum that even a cursory glance at your political or philosophical positions would reveal some degree of harm to other people that you're willing to incur.I have my faults but no, not so much. I keep a tape measure in my cubby to make sure Im parked the legal 10 from a fire hydrant. Why? So fire trucks have easy access. I never double park. Would be convenient, but I dont do it. Why? Cause it will impede traffic flow a bit on that street. If Im doin the speed limit on a twisty road and folks behind me want to go faster, I pull over so they can pass me. Why? Well, doesnt cost me anything, and lets people who want to go faster go faster. If Im at a Dunkin Donuts getting an order for four people and I see a poor lone person behind me, I let em go first. Why? Just seems like the right thing to do. You know common courtesy.
No doubt some things I do may incur some degree of harm to other people, but by and large, I try to be aware of other people meaning people around me who I dont know, who are not friends, family or colleagues and I try to make things a little bit better for them. I try. And to your point, yeah, Im sure I dont always succeed. But yes, I do try. Truth is, it doesnt take a helluva lot of time or energy to do - or not do - little nothing things that makes others happier. So why not? I enjoy knowing that, relatively speaking, my Miata is not a big threat to the safety of others. Of course, I could not have a car at all! That would be even safer for others. But, well you get the point.
Dry Martini
1st July 2020, 14:44
That's what I'm talking about. The suburban doesn't give you more interior space. It assumes you require ground clearance and raises the floor of the vehicle unnecessarily, forcing you to crawl to the 3rd row. I am talking about a minivan that is the same length width and height as your typical F-150/suburban. With the last row up, a minivan does not offer generous cargo space.
Edit: here we go. Standard minivan on the left, standard full size pickup in the middle, and my "full size minivan" to the right. Same height and length as the pickup allows you to fit adults into the 3rd row without crawling, and have a real trunk space. Still fits into underground parking garages. Still not a diesel sprinter or hideous ford transit.
BUTT, they are ugly minivans. No thanks.
Dry Martini
1st July 2020, 14:48
You’ve utterly missed the point; a couple of people with no stuff shouldn’t have a Tahoe. (Of course, it’s perfectly legal for them to drive whatever they feel like, but seein’ as how other people – pedestrians, cyclists, babies in strollers, and folks driving Miatas – are on the very same roads, a Tahoe not doing heavy lifting is just, well… wrong. Legal but wrong. Assuming you find selfish choices that endanger others to be wrong. Alas, many ‘Mericans apparently don’t have a problem with that. “Hey, it’s not my baby. Not my wife. Not my kid. What do I care??”
Who determined it was wrong? You?
No I don't have a problem driving a larger vehicle than other, just like I don't have a problem riding a motorcycle that is smaller than any four wheeled vehicle on the road.
If you do not feel safe, maybe you should take public transportation.
look 171
1st July 2020, 15:13
Lol, that’s a different discussion. Personally, I think people who choose to have those things should be able to own a vehicle that can accommodate them. It’s the couple who don’t have those things yet insist on driving a big ass vehicle that are a real menace.
You like in NYC, so why do you even need a vehicle?
This always turns into one of those you don't need such a vehicle threads base on everyone's personal experiences thread. I am sure most of us have more then one bathrooms in the house. Do you really need the extra one? Heck, most of you never use the entire house 100 % and never go into a certain rooms, so why have a large house? 600sq' will do. Who are we kidding here? We are not going to convince each other because we are too damn old an set in our own ways.
Lance Schall
1st July 2020, 15:34
Bring back the slab sided, cabover, square box!
Dry Martini
1st July 2020, 16:02
You like in NYC, so why do you even need a vehicle?
This always turns into one of those you don't need such a vehicle threads base on everyone's personal experiences thread. I am sure most of us have more then one bathrooms in the house. Do you really need the extra one? Heck, most of you never use the entire house 100 % and never go into a certain rooms, so why have a large house? 600sq' will do. Who are we kidding here? We are not going to convince each other because we are too damn old an set in our own ways.
I am with you on this, but age has nothing to do with it. We were not old when we bought this 3000 sq ft home.
I also have relatives that visit and stay with us. This extra rooms keep from everyone being cramped.
YP515
1st July 2020, 16:05
Bring back the slab sided, cabover, square box!
I owned a 1967 Dodge A100 window delivery *(rare) with the 230hp 318 and a three speed manual on the column and I gotta tell ya' for what it was it went right along. Mid-ship motor was not a bad idea.
*(window delivery is three sets of double doors with windows, find one)
Lance Schall
1st July 2020, 16:25
Yeah, Chevy put the V8 small block in 1967 too. I don't think they offered that combination in the short wheelbase chassis like my 1966.
New Yorker
1st July 2020, 16:26
You like in NYC, so why do you even need a vehicle?
You’re right, I don’t need a vehicle! I am single with no kids, no job (now semi-retired), no immediate family, no dog and, at the moment, no significant other. So my Miata is a lot like motorcycle, merely a form of pleasure - and therapy - for me. I take it out a few times a month, usually on Sundays, to go for drives in the country, often with a friend, to visit my married, suburban friends - or just go for a drive (hopefully involving a cheeseburger and a beer along the way). I rarely drive in the city; only to get in and out of town. So I drive about 4,500 miles a year. I get around on a daily basis by bike, subway, bus and a lot of walking.
So no, I do not need a car. It’s just a hobby to help keep me sane. And happy! And yes, the world would be a bit safer with one less car – mine – on the road. But in the grand scheme of things, I’m comfortable with my decision, all things considered. Me and my little car don’t make much of a demand on others or the environment. But yeah, were I a better person, I wouldn’t have it at all. As I said, I try, but I’m far from perfect. The Miata is my small indulgence.
baritone mike
1st July 2020, 16:31
With the way these are selling you would think the message to the manufacturers are clear, we don't really care about fuel economy or having a cumbersome large vehicle. We buy and use full size pickup trucks to use as daily drivers even if they will never tow or carry anything in the bed.
If Suzuki brought the Jimny over and bumped the 4 banger up to a more American reasonable 150ish HP (from the current 100hp) I would seriously consider buying one. I guess I am not included in the "we" they aren't listening to.:dunno:
Lance Schall
1st July 2020, 16:31
...no kids...The world is better off for that than it would be if you didn't have a Miata.
Lance Schall
1st July 2020, 16:32
If Suzuki brought the Jimny over and bumped the 4 banger up to a more American reasonable 150ish HP (from the current 100hp) I would seriously consider buying one...A guy could stick a turbo on it...:cool:
New Yorker
1st July 2020, 16:48
The world is better off for that than it would be if you didn't have a Miata.
Yes, I probably dont have any children.
NJBrit
1st July 2020, 16:52
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I do not want a larger vehicle than what I have. Right now the largest in the fleet is a 2011 Pilot. Did fine to and from NC for vacation. Packed right for 4 people and didn't even use the roof carrier.
I once said I would never, but we owned a 2002 Odyssey, and that was quite honestly the best long hauler I have ever driven. Honda made it sporty enough (Don't laugh, it was) to be an enjoyable every day driver and it had 4 captains chairs and a bench rear seat. Plus loading was a breeze and it had the roof rack. The only reason we moved it was because when the boys started playing hockey, I wanted something AWD for long road trips.
Do I miss not having a truck sometimes for hauling? Sure, but not enough to buy something bigger.
+1 on the Odyssey. We bought one in 2002 when the first kid came along and sold it 14 years later. No problems whatsoever; followed recommended maintenance; 110k miles when sold; could fold rear seats and remove 2nd row captains chairs to make a true van. Loved it!
NJBrit
1st July 2020, 17:26
I have my faults but no, not so much. I keep a tape measure in my cubby to make sure Im parked the legal 10 from a fire hydrant. Why? So fire trucks have easy access. I never double park. Would be convenient, but I dont do it. Why? Cause it will impede traffic flow a bit on that street. If Im doin the speed limit on a twisty road and folks behind me want to go faster, I pull over so they can pass me. Why? Well, doesnt cost me anything, and lets people who want to go faster go faster. If Im at a Dunkin Donuts getting an order for four people and I see a poor lone person behind me, I let em go first. Why? Just seems like the right thing to do. You know common courtesy.
No doubt some things I do may incur some degree of harm to other people, but by and large, I try to be aware of other people meaning people around me who I dont know, who are not friends, family or colleagues and I try to make things a little bit better for them. I try. And to your point, yeah, Im sure I dont always succeed. But yes, I do try. Truth is, it doesnt take a helluva lot of time or energy to do - or not do - little nothing things that makes others happier. So why not? I enjoy knowing that, relatively speaking, my Miata is not a big threat to the safety of others. Of course, I could not have a car at all! That would be even safer for others. But, well you get the point.
In these divided and difficult times, its refreshing to read about courtesy. We may not all agree about pick up trucks, SUV's and small convertibles, but having a courteous exchange about issues is always a good thing.
tom10167
1st July 2020, 17:34
Those 70s astro or whatever held a lot of people, they had the right idea. I tend to agree, for hauling more than 5 people there's still not a lot of great options besides minivans.
henchcraft
1st July 2020, 17:54
A lecture on endangering others from a guy who drinks and drives.
Orangello
1st July 2020, 18:02
I drove an early 80's Bonneville in high school and part of college and have since gone for smaller vehicles generally. That said, I did see a strangely intriguing Ford the other day on CList; it just roared EXCESS and NO QUARTER GIVEN (except for fuel). It had a nice third row seat. For under $5K I was momentarily tempted.
New Yorker
1st July 2020, 18:04
A lecture on endangering others from a guy who drinks and drives.
Is that me?? No lecture, and just a cheeseburger and one beer on a Sunday drive. Do you consider that irresponsible??
01CryBlue
1st July 2020, 18:50
I owned a 1967 Dodge A100 window delivery *(rare) with the 230hp 318 and a three speed manual on the column and I gotta tell ya' for what it was it went right along. Mid-ship motor was not a bad idea.
*(window delivery is three sets of double doors with windows, find one)
I looked up a picture an A100 with the doghouse open and it looks like a real PIA to service a v8. The straight six I saw in the picture didn't look bad.
Is that me?? No lecture, and just a cheeseburger and one beer on a Sunday drive. Do you consider that irresponsible??
Of course if you have a burger and a beer (throw in a water or two) you will be fine to drive safely.
And in my opinion the gargantuan SUVs are a cancer on our automotive landscape as well as a scorn-worthy choice of daily conveyance if you don't utilize it's size. However, if I had a 1960s Lincoln Continental or a 68 Charger (neither are small) I'd rock that every day I had the chance so call me a hypocrite.
Dry Martini
1st July 2020, 18:51
Is that me?? No lecture, and just a cheeseburger and one beer on a Sunday drive. Do you consider that irresponsible??
I thought it was me. :D
No, a burger and a beer is not irresponsible. For the average body weight of a male, the body can break down one ounce of alcohol per hour, with a meal. That said, if I go out and drink, my wife is the one who drives us home.
And if you get stopped while driving after consuming alcohol, just remember to refuse to blow. I was given that wise counsel by an attorney.
twowheeled
1st July 2020, 19:08
And if you get stopped while driving after consuming alcohol, just remember to refuse to blow. I was given that wise counsel by an attorney.
Sage advice. Refuse the breathalyzer too.
Dry Martini
1st July 2020, 19:16
Sage advice. Refuse the breathalyzer too.
Cheeky. :D
Skip Cannon
1st July 2020, 20:42
What happens if you refuse to blow into the breathalyzer?
Kirill
1st July 2020, 21:00
Ford Excursion fits your description of "full-size minivan" to a T.
Den Socling
1st July 2020, 21:26
I bought my Tundra in 2005. I never considered another because they started getting big. My wife and I don't do a lot of driving because my business is within walking distance. If I need to get beer, I drive my Miata. If she goes for groceries, she drives her Accord. If we need something bigger like when we are taking our daughter and grandsons somewhere, we have a CX9. When we are going camping, we take our motorhome. I think giant trucks are a waste of money and an unnecessary source of pollution. Who really needs one? Just my opinion.
RADOne
1st July 2020, 22:09
They need giant trucks on farms to pull a trailer full of cattle. I'm amazed at the weight some of them pull.
baritone mike
1st July 2020, 22:25
What happens if you refuse to blow into the breathalyzer?
(not speaking from personal experience)
In WA when you get your driver's license you agree to involuntary blood draws in that situation. So you will be hand cuffed and put in the back of the patrol vehicle and taken to either the police station or hospital for a blood draw and BAC analysis (I think your car is also impounded). Every cop I have ever talked to gives the same advise, hand them your license politely (you don't legally need to speak to them) and refuse any and all field sobriety tests and the breathalyzer.
ngamountains
1st July 2020, 22:25
Who’s we? The Royal we?
twowheeled
1st July 2020, 22:55
I still say that, unless pretending you're the Marlboro Man is the only thing that keeps your fragile ego intact, if you don't need a truck more than once a month don't buy one--rent one as required. Fewer people care about your self-image than you might think.
I don't know how I came across as someone with small man syndrome or an evil polluting earth destroyer. But here is how I hauled things for 3 years while living out in the boonies. I have nothing to prove, I just want a full size van for sleeping down by the river. (and yes that is over 2000lb of wood)
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s1080x2048/37772503_10160619872070301_3400148870338969600_o.j pg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=BrvPeTaj9y8AX9Nj4uH&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&_nc_tp=7&oh=49ef6b19fde810411e0d60854fb7b67e&oe=5F220CD2
01SEBRG
1st July 2020, 23:24
(not speaking from personal experience)
In WA when you get your driver's license you agree to involuntary blood draws in that situation. So you will be hand cuffed and put in the back of the patrol vehicle and taken to either the police station or hospital for a blood draw and BAC analysis (I think your car is also impounded). Every cop I have ever talked to gives the same advise, hand them your license politely (you don't legally need to speak to them) and refuse any and all field sobriety tests and the breathalyzer.
I'm not positive, but I also think that if you don't blow or let them draw blood, they suspend your license for a year....so it is a choice to be made.
Dry Martini
2nd July 2020, 06:25
What happens if you refuse to blow into the breathalyzer?
Washington State aside, if I refuse to blow, at most they can do is suspend my license for 6 months and the DUI charge against me will be dropped due to lack of evidence. In my state, they are not allowed a free blood sample. I would never surrender my rights so easily.
In all likelihood, they will not suspend your license. Regardless, it is cheaper than a DUI conviction.
Dry Martini
2nd July 2020, 06:30
I'm not positive, but I also think that if you don't blow or let them draw blood, they suspend your license for a year....so it is a choice to be made.
No choice at all. A year of Uber is way cheaper than a DUI conviction and all that it entails.
Dry Martini
2nd July 2020, 06:38
I still say that, unless pretending you're the Marlboro Man is the only thing that keeps your fragile ego intact, if you don't need a truck more than once a month don't buy one--rent one as required. Fewer people care about your self-image than you might think.
Who are you to tell others what to buy and drive. My tax accountant does not even do that. He only answers questions that I ask of him.
Not everyone who drives a truck is trying to impress the general public. Some people just want a truck.
baritone mike
2nd July 2020, 12:07
I'm not positive, but I also think that if you don't blow or let them draw blood, they suspend your license for a year....so it is a choice to be made.
The easy choice is to just not drink and drive, then you can avoid the whole situation.:dunno:
Red_5
2nd July 2020, 12:19
I bought my Tundra in 2005. I never considered another because they started getting big. My wife and I don't do a lot of driving because my business is within walking distance. If I need to get beer, I drive my Miata. If she goes for groceries, she drives her Accord. If we need something bigger like when we are taking our daughter and grandsons somewhere, we have a CX9. When we are going camping, we take our motorhome. I think giant trucks are a waste of money and an unnecessary source of pollution. Who really needs one? Just my opinion.
Honestly, I cant tell if youre being sincere or sarcastic with this post.
Dry Martini
2nd July 2020, 12:25
Honestly, I cant tell if youre being sincere or sarcastic with this post.
+1. Tell us all about how green your motor home is, that you use to go camping. :rolleyes:
And remember, some people have money to waste. That is why it is called disposable income. :cool:
Gumpus
2nd July 2020, 12:45
Is that me?? No lecture, and just a cheeseburger and one beer on a Sunday drive. Do you consider that irresponsible??
One drink may put you over the legal limit in Sweden. One drink impairs your driving skills and increases risk to other people.
twowheeled
2nd July 2020, 12:46
So I counted 5 vehicles between 2 people?
twowheeled
2nd July 2020, 12:58
Love the F150 turbo motors (2.7 and 3.5...both twin turbo V6 motors with a lot of torque). Must respectively dissent from the suggestion that the F150 belongs in the club with respect to 'ride quality and refinement of current full size pickups also rivals most luxury vehicles', when in fact the Ford has classic Leaf spring rear for now and if you even load 4 guys with gear to go to the mountains you will be quickly reminded that it is a truck with old school rear suspension. Interior has a ton of cheap hard plastics, and the stock F150 brakes are poor, nothing within miles of a good luxury car in terms of handling, braking, ride, interior quality, etc. The only selling point in my view for the F150 is the boosted engines in terms of torque and fun.
But Ford is giving the Raptor rear coil springs and we expect that will work down into the garden variety updated F150s and that will go a long way to close the gap to rivals like the RAM that have much nicer interiors as of today and much more modern rear suspension that rides and handles better than F150 (even before the factory air suspension option on the Ram which is likely the ultimate truck magic carpet ride currently).
As for the modern van having same level of refinement, as others have suggested we call it the SUV today and with 2 or 3 rows of seating the better choices leave the 2020 Ford F150 in the dust in terms of suspension refinement, interior material quality, braking and handling, etc. Nonetheless, we expect FORD to follow the RAM example and update the suspension and interior to better match the refinement of luxury cars and SUVs and the RAM trucks.
That's interesting, the last Ram I had was a 2017 rebel with air suspension. I feel that the ram has better control over the rear axle but NVH is overall higher in the cabin compared to the aluminum body F-150. I dont know if that is because of the added stiffness of the Ford but despite knowing that the rear axle is tramping I can feel less of it make its way into the cabin. What vehicles do you suggest that have better ride quality over bad pavement? I love being in a tomb of silence.
Lance Schall
2nd July 2020, 13:15
Yes, air springs and magnetorheological shocks are the obvious development for the rear axle of pickup trucks. What are Ford, Chevy and Ram waiting for? Tesla to do it first?:)
Red_5
2nd July 2020, 13:21
Yes, air springs and magnetorheological shocks are the obvious development for the rear axle of pickup trucks. What are Ford, Chevy and Ram waiting for? Tesla to do it first?:)
GM has had some type of magnetic shocks on their Denali 1500 trucks for several years. Not sure if Chevy High Country has them but they do now along with their high trim lever body on frame SUVs.
Dry Martini
2nd July 2020, 13:24
One drink may put you over the legal limit in Sweden. One drink impairs your driving skills and increases risk to other people.
We have been to Sweden. We had no need of a car. Walking or the trains got us where we needed to go.
I cant wait to go back!
Gumpus
2nd July 2020, 16:08
Yes, air springs and magnetorheological shocks are the obvious development for the rear axle of pickup trucks. What are Ford, Chevy and Ram waiting for? Tesla to do it first?:)
Ram already has IRS. I was the NVH manager when Ford launched the all new 2004 F150 which was marketed as "quietest truck ever" Road noise was 6 dB below the quietest Volvo (6 dB is four clearly noticeable differences or two big frickin dramatic differences). Not sure they need to improve much when the vehicle is already so quiet. It's hard to beat body on frame construction for road noise elimination since it has double isolation...but you can also get there with super stiff suspension attachment points, thick floorpans, plus a whole sh**load of sound barrier and absorption material plus thick or laminated glass. When we test drove a Mazda CX-9 my wife thought it was too quiet. But for sure the heavy solid axle on pick-ups means the unsprung mass is much harder to control on rough roads so ride quality suffers compared to vehicles with independent suspension. Ford Super Duty front axle + wheels weighs over 1000 lbs vs 50 lbs for a typical tire/wheel assembly on independent suspension vehicle so if you hit a deep pothole the suspension may not bottom but your head may bounce off the roof or side window. :eek:
Gumpus
2nd July 2020, 16:11
We have been to Sweden. We had no need of a car. Walking or the trains got us where we needed to go.
I cant wait to go back!
I've only been there once. One thing I remember is how many of the cars had huge auxiliary driving lights.
Thinker
2nd July 2020, 16:59
What happens if you refuse to blow into the breathalyzer?
Depends on what State you're stopped in. Laws in this area vary greatly from State to State.
When I lived in Kansas City the DUII limit was different depending on if you were driving north or south on State Line Road. Going north, you're in Missouri and DUII limit was .1; going south you're in Kansas at .08. I may have the limits reversed. Either way, there was a significant difference.
Dry Martini
2nd July 2020, 17:16
I've only been there once. One thing I remember is how many of the cars had huge auxiliary driving lights.
We were there in January 2019. What I noticed was that most cars were very dirty. They looked like cars in the states that are making the annual road trip for the family Christmas time gathering. Only this was locals in downtown Stockholm. The one Exception was a late model Audi (in red) and it was spotless.
My wife wants to go back in the summer, when everything is in bloom. But I would be just as happy to go back in winter, when sundown is 1500 hrs local time in Sweden. The 20F days felt great!
Red_5
2nd July 2020, 17:44
Ram already has IRS.
In which vehicle does Ram have an IRS? Surely not any of their trucks.
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/06/10/ram-1500-suspension-deep-dive/
People may like the ride of coil springs but the payload ratings for the Ram 1500 and 2500 can be pretty poor.
look 171
2nd July 2020, 18:37
So I counted 5 vehicles between 2 people?
Nothin' wrong with dat.
look 171
2nd July 2020, 18:49
I am with you on this, but age has nothing to do with it. We were not old when we bought this 3000 sq ft home.
I also have relatives that visit and stay with us. This extra rooms keep from everyone being cramped.
The extra room and extra space is there to, well, have extras. Nothing wrong with that. I always get a kick out of comparing to Europe. Well, this aint Europe, Asia, Africa, nor anywhere else. People criticize just because they can without ever looking within and ask themselves why they those others things but quick to judge. Seriously, if it comes down to it, why have two pairs of shoes? I laugh, always in this form about pollution and being green and yet going out for a drive in the twisties are completely acceptable. Or someone who works for an oil company are talking about pollution to the environment.
Orangello
2nd July 2020, 18:54
Ford Excursion fits your description of "full-size minivan" to a T.
https://hattiesburg.craigslist.org/cto/d/eastabuchie-2003-ford-excursion-4x4/7152125745.html
A local Excursion I was briefly tempted by. It needs a brushguard.
I think giant trucks are a waste of money and an unnecessary source of pollution. Who really needs one? Just my opinion.
There are some seriously fat people here in MS; some of them should not be inflicted upon a regular passenger vehicle. A very large but very sweet in-law ended up putt-putting about on the 80cc scooter I had for my paper route in my youth. I felt reeeeeeally bad for the poor little scooter, but it kept up the fight for a long time and got her to the mailbox and such.
Who are you to tell others what to buy and drive. My tax accountant does not even do that. He only answers questions that I ask of him.
You are not getting full value from your tax accountant. He needs to be asking you odd questions to do the best job for you.
If he pulls out a measuring tape or asks you about confined spaces, draw a line.
The easy choice is to just not drink and drive, then you can avoid the whole situation.:dunno:
But pot isn't legal here yet. :confused:
Orangello
2nd July 2020, 18:56
...Seriously, if it comes down to it, why have two pairs of shoes?
Well for bowling of course!
Dry Martini
2nd July 2020, 18:59
The extra room and extra space is there to, well, have extras. Nothing wrong with that. I always get a kick out of comparing to Europe.
How true! I need extra room just for my speakers. Then there is my ham radio equipment.
Yes comparing to Europe or just this very earth friendly 600 sq ft Micro home. :rolleyes: Hey if someone can live in that, good for them. I want more. ;)
Skip Cannon
2nd July 2020, 20:16
Ram already has IRS. I was the NVH manager when Ford launched the all new 2004 F150 which was marketed as "quietest truck ever" Road noise was 6 dB below the quietest Volvo (6 dB is four clearly noticeable differences or two big frickin dramatic differences). Not sure they need to improve much when the vehicle is already so quiet. It's hard to beat body on frame construction for road noise elimination since it has double isolation...but you can also get there with super stiff suspension attachment points, thick floorpans, plus a whole sh**load of sound barrier and absorption material plus thick or laminated glass. When we test drove a Mazda CX-9 my wife thought it was too quiet. But for sure the heavy solid axle on pick-ups means the unsprung mass is much harder to control on rough roads so ride quality suffers compared to vehicles with independent suspension. Ford Super Duty front axle + wheels weighs over 1000 lbs vs 50 lbs for a typical tire/wheel assembly on independent suspension vehicle so if you hit a deep pothole the suspension may not bottom but your head may bounce off the roof or side window. :eek:
The Ram has optional air ride suspension. All Ram trucks have a solid rear axle that rides on coil springs, not sure if the Ram 2500 and up have coils. I doubt it weighs anywhere near 1,000 lb.
Each wheel and tire weighs around 80 lb.
The active noise cancellation in my '19 Ram makes it quieter inside than most cars.
01SEBRG
2nd July 2020, 20:32
I've felt that manufacturers have been listening, and most models in my mind have been getting bigger since the early sixties....
My first thought and example is the 230 MB...check that history out...
And speaking of vans, they've been getting longer and higher since the 70's.:dunno:
amazingjason
2nd July 2020, 21:06
Or we could still expect people to use crosswalks and look both ways before crossing the street. Then we could still have stylish cars with low hoods and beltlines. As for the Tahoe, you might see a woman driving alone and grit your teeth not realizing that she and her family will pull a camping trailer or boat to the lake over the weekend.
Jason
Youve utterly missed the point; a couple of people with no stuff shouldnt have a Tahoe. (Of course, its perfectly legal for them to drive whatever they feel like, but seein as how other people pedestrians, cyclists, babies in strollers, and folks driving Miatas are on the very same roads, a Tahoe not doing heavy lifting is just, well wrong. Legal but wrong. Assuming you find selfish choices that endanger others to be wrong. Alas, many Mericans apparently dont have a problem with that. Hey, its not my baby. Not my wife. Not my kid. What do I care??
https://jalopnik.com/suvs-are-28-percent-more-likely-to-kill-other-drivers-i-1838994674
https://www.aarp.org/auto/driver-safety/info-2018/suv-pedestrian-dangers.html
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/oct/07/a-deadly-problem-should-we-ban-suvs-from-our-cities
amazingjason
2nd July 2020, 21:14
I try to be aware of “other people” – meaning people around me who I don’t know, who are not friends, family or colleagues – and I try to make things a little bit better for them. I try.
Being judgmental to the point of hostility toward people who don’t do things as you would have them do does not make things a little bit better for them.
They say that we judge ourselves by the best of our intentions and others by the worst of their actions.
Jason
EndlessPurple
3rd July 2020, 01:30
Vans are not cool today.
Family driving vacations are not cool today.
We had a large van for family trips to the grand canyon growing up (2 adults, 5 kids) that size-wise worked well. Two rows of captains seats and a back bench that folded to a bed. Also had a sink area behind that, followed by luggage space. Room was not a problem. Gas mileage was another story.
People now want cool cars and don't take large family road trips.
As too larger vehicles (full size pickups, full size vans and full size SUVs, there should be a different driver's license classification to drive one as they have for motorcycles and larger commercial trucks. Too many people buy a large SUV and drive it like a sedan which can be dangerous to others on the road.
Of course idiots that weaver in and out and drive recklessly are a problem in all size vehicles, this is not for those issues.
Dry Martini
3rd July 2020, 05:04
Vans are not cool today.
Family driving vacations are not cool today.
We had a large van for family trips to the grand canyon growing up (2 adults, 5 kids) that size-wise worked well. Two rows of captains seats and a back bench that folded to a bed. Also had a sink area behind that, followed by luggage space. Room was not a problem. Gas mileage was another story.
People now want cool cars and don't take large family road trips.
As too larger vehicles (full size pickups, full size vans and full size SUVs, there should be a different driver's license classification to drive one as they have for motorcycles and larger commercial trucks. Too many people buy a large SUV and drive it like a sedan which can be dangerous to others on the road.
Of course idiots that weaver in and out and drive recklessly are a problem in all size vehicles, this is not for those issues.
Stupid idea. Our state use to not have a motorcycle license. Then in the early 70s, some of the powers realized there was a way to make some extra money for the state coffers.
And just like people manage to pass the motorcycle license and go on to get in accidents, SUV owners would pass your test and continue driving those SUVs like a sedan. Nothing changes.
Orangello
3rd July 2020, 15:12
Vans are not cool today.
People now want cool cars and don't take large family road trips.
I'm not sure these truths are universal.
My nephew took his kids and their mother on a family road trip a few weeks ago (CR-V). My other nephew took his family to the beach at least once last year (king cab pickup). My eldest and least favorite sister went for a family beach vacation last week with her husband, his daughter, the daughter's husband, and the daughter's three kids.
My family had the raised roof chevy conversion van with two rows of captain's chairs (none for Tennille?) and the handy fold out bed in the back. When I was allowed to use the van, I found the ice chest behind the fold-out couch VERY handy.
I haven't been on a bike in several years, but I still keep my motorcycle endorsem*nt.
EndlessPurple
3rd July 2020, 15:21
True, not all universal, but more so than other generations within people I meet. Most of the younger people I know, never consider family road trips. Some have done them, but not as common as when I was younger. More people prefer to fly on their trips that I meet now.
The van we had was an extended version, so it added about 2 feet to the length. Don't remember the make. But I think vans have a lot of positives depending on ones needs.
EndlessPurple
3rd July 2020, 15:25
Stupid idea. Our state use to not have a motorcycle license. Then in the early 70s, some of the powers realized there was a way to make some extra money for the state coffers.
And just like people manage to pass the motorcycle license and go on to get in accidents, SUV owners would pass your test and continue driving those SUVs like a sedan. Nothing changes.
Any chance you have before and after accident numbers to show they stayed high over the years before and after the law? And for the after part, accidents by those with and without a proper license breakdown.
Plus it does need to have a big impact, just letting some responsible drivers learn more about the stopping distances, blocking views of other drivers, and various effects of larger vehicles on the roads in general. There are many well intended people that might pay attention. Those that are rude or self centered drivers, as I mention will not be changed.
MattAlley
3rd July 2020, 15:36
I found the ice chest behind the fold-out couch VERY handy.
.
Yeah, I guess things stay fresh much longer than in a trunk. I believe Jeff Dahmer pioneered this technique.
look 171
3rd July 2020, 16:02
True, not all universal, but more so than other generations within people I meet. Most of the younger people I know, never consider family road trips. Some have done them, but not as common as when I was younger. More people prefer to fly on their trips that I meet now.
The van we had was an extended version, so it added about 2 feet to the length. Don't remember the make. But I think vans have a lot of positives depending on ones needs.
No, they rather go on vacation through their computers. It cheaper and more comfortable. I still like my search engine up front under my hood.
BetweenMiatas
3rd July 2020, 16:08
No, they rather go on vacation through their computers. It cheaper and more comfortable. I still like my search engine up front under my hood.
:thumbs:
Orangello
3rd July 2020, 17:19
Yeah, I guess “things” stay fresh much longer than in a trunk. I believe Jeff Dahmer pioneered this technique.
It had a nice drain line that went out the bottom of the van.
No, nobody ever asked about puddles of transmission fluid. :p
I heard the pizza in Dahmer's icebox set the cops back a bit.
look 171
3rd July 2020, 17:53
:thumbs:
I sure hope that's for the last sentence?
BetweenMiatas
3rd July 2020, 18:47
I sure hope that's for the last sentence?
Yes. I quite liked that turn of phrase.
Gord96BRG
3rd July 2020, 19:58
Yes. I quite liked that turn of phrase.
Is it still as like-able when you add in a few quotation marks, nudge nudge wink wink style?
I still like my "search engine" up front under my "hood".
(OK, I'm not even sure what that would mean)
Dry Martini
3rd July 2020, 20:16
Any chance you have before and after accident numbers to show they stayed high over the years before and after the law? And for the after part, accidents by those with and without a proper license breakdown.
Plus it does need to have a big impact, just letting some responsible drivers learn more about the stopping distances, blocking views of other drivers, and various effects of larger vehicles on the roads in general. There are many well intended people that might pay attention. Those that are rude or self centered drivers, as I mention will not be changed.
No. I dont keep such things. I do read the NHTSA stats for motorcycle accidents/fatalities. But the simple answer is accidents and fatalities have gone up since before licensing was required, because more people are riding, alcohol is involved, and helmets not required in this state for those over 21. And nation wide stats are up with a good number of states requiring a potential rider to take the MSF safety course. Make of that what you will.
BetweenMiatas
3rd July 2020, 20:54
Is it still as like-able when you add in a few quotation marks, nudge nudge wink wink style?
(OK, I'm not even sure what that would mean)
:rofl:
Perhaps even more.
BetweenMiatas
3rd July 2020, 20:55
It had a nice drain line that went out the bottom of the van.
No, nobody ever asked about puddles of transmission fluid. :p
I heard the pizza in Dahmer's icebox set the cops back a bit.
STOP BEING SO CREEPY!
Gord96BRG
3rd July 2020, 21:49
STOP BEING SO CREEPY!
:p He reminds me of the regrettably Canadian singer, Neil Young, who when told once that he was singing off-key replied "Hey man, that's my style" :thumbs:
(Yes, I know, I've told that story here before - when I went to google just now to find a link to that story, the third hit was my retelling it here on the forum in 2014! :eek: )
Neil Young? Meh... I'm with Lynyrd Skynyrd. (referring to the 'Southern Man' vs. 'Sweet Home Alabama' duel).
Young is from my home town, but a decade or so ahead of me, so I never saw him when he was starting out performing in the local bar scene.
My favourite Neil Young story is from the recording sessions for "Tears Are Not Enough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tears_Are_Not_Enough)", the Canadian charity song from the mid 80s that was a response to the UK song "Do They Know It's Christmas? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_They_Know_It%27s_Christmas%3F)" and that preceded the US song "We Are The World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Are_the_World)". During the recording session, producer David Foster stopped the group and said "That's great, but Neil, you were off-key there" and Young replied "Hey man, that's my style".
MX5/XJ6
3rd July 2020, 22:57
New GM fullsize vans (Express/Savana) drive super nice, just get a passenger version. Problem solved.
I sat inside my friends new F-150 ecoboost the other day. Strangely i've driven dozens of full size pickups for work but rarely ride shotgun or in the back seat. And each time I do, I'm struck by how comfortable and spacious the interior is, and even if I were to be morbidly obese I think I would still not want for more space.
The ride quality and refinement of current full size pickups also rivals most luxury vehicles I've ridden in. I still can't believe the total lack of road and suspension noise on a truck. With the way these are selling you would think the message to the manufacturers are clear, we don't really care about fuel economy or having a cumbersome large vehicle. We buy and use full size pickup trucks to use as daily drivers even if they will never tow or carry anything in the bed.
So this leads me to a question. Why does nobody make a full size van with the same level of development as a pickup? Minivans just don't cut it, full size SUV's don't offer the same interior space in their 3rd rows which are only good for children, and you have to crawl in the back. Why haven't full sized vans moved past the commercial interiors? Or make a unibody minivan a few inches wider, taller, and longer?
MX5/XJ6
3rd July 2020, 23:04
:p He reminds me of the regrettably Canadian singer, Neil Young, who when told once that he was singing off-key replied "Hey man, that's my style"
Neil Young sucks out loud.
Dry Martini
4th July 2020, 04:12
Neil Young sucks out loud.
True, but over the years, so much of popular music sucks. Where will this end? :D
look 171
4th July 2020, 04:42
Neil young is a bit before my time, but I like lots of his earlier stuff. I love hippy music. Born 15 years too late. Oh man, what a horrible singer.
tvrbob
4th July 2020, 06:37
Absolutely brilliant song:
https://youtu.be/40YzTpxrdZQ
https://youtu.be/xsblaVJcQeM
2ndOne
4th July 2020, 06:47
Every time I see this thread title "manufacturers aren't listening, we want bigger vehicles.", I think "no we don't". I can understand the OP's wants, for those rare times--there are options for that 'need'.
But *I* want smaller vehicles everywhere. The far majority of vehicles I see on the road are IMO needlessly large for their common use (most often one person, sometimes two persons, the vehicle largely empty).
tvrbob
4th July 2020, 06:55
Every time I see this thread title "manufacturers aren't listening, we want bigger vehicles.", I think "no we don't". I can understand the OP's wants, for those rare times--there are options for that 'need'.
But *I* want smaller vehicles everywhere. The far majority of vehicles I see on the road are IMO needlessly large for their common use (most often one person, sometimes two persons, the vehicle largely empty).I don't care what other people drive but I'll take a Jimny. And a left-hand-drive version of this (https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1962-mg-1962-mg-lenham-gt/).
henchcraft
4th July 2020, 09:39
No vocals on "Emperor of Wyoming".
Red_5
4th July 2020, 10:09
There are lots of people living in self converted cargo vans these days, many by choice. I think it’s an off-shoot of the tiny house don’t want a mortgage thing. I see lots of these vans at MTB/hiking trailheads. I talked to one guy riding on the trail who lived out of his Ram Promaster, was riding a bike that cost at least $5k.
New Yorker
4th July 2020, 10:21
Every time I see this thread title "manufacturers aren't listening, we want bigger vehicles.", I think "no we don't". I can understand the OP's wants, for those rare times--there are options for that 'need'.
But *I* want smaller vehicles everywhere. The far majority of vehicles I see on the road are IMO needlessly large for their common use (most often one person, sometimes two persons, the vehicle largely empty).
Exactly.
Dry Martini
4th July 2020, 13:11
But *I* want smaller vehicles everywhere. The far majority of vehicles I see on the road are IMO needlessly large for their common use (most often one person, sometimes two persons, the vehicle largely empty).
Well I guess you are at an enpass. You want small vehicles and they want large vehicles.
How do you deal with semi and big box delivery trucks blocking your view? Do likewise for the large SUVs.
Den Socling
4th July 2020, 15:50
Exactly.
I second that. The vast majority of vehicles on the road today ARE needlessly large. I wouldn't say that they (big pickups) are holding together fragile egos but some guys get an emotional boost from sitting in what they consider to be a big, beautiful and powerful truck. It's not unlike the feeling I get from driving my Miata.
Gord96BRG
4th July 2020, 17:41
Every time I see this thread title "manufacturers aren't listening, we want bigger vehicles.", I think "no we don't". I can understand the OP's wants, for those rare times--there are options for that 'need'.
But *I* want smaller vehicles everywhere. The far majority of vehicles I see on the road are IMO needlessly large for their common use (most often one person, sometimes two persons, the vehicle largely empty).
Exactly. However, people are free to choose, and in North America are voting with their wallets for larger vehicles mostly.
BUT - what is unfair is the vehicle classifications for emissions and safety regulations. Back in the late 70s, early 80s, the US NHTSA granted exemptions to light trucks as work vehicles, and they didn't have to meet the same safety (bumper, side impact) or emissions regulations as passenger vehicles.
Fine, if they're work vehicles - but now that 98% of trucks and truck-based SUVs and many CUVs, classified as work vehicles, are in reality just passenger vehicles, they should all have to meet the same regulations as passenger vehicles. Bumper faces 16-20" off the ground, headlights 20-24" above ground. Trucks are pretty much all ugly anyway, so no problem having them meet the same regulations as passenger vehicles. That would ban lifted bro trucks, too - jack em back down, boys! Emissions regulations - hell yeah, no exemptions for trucks just for being trucks, they're passenger vehicles.
twowheeled
4th July 2020, 17:47
Every time I see this thread title "manufacturers aren't listening, we want bigger vehicles.", I think "no we don't". I can understand the OP's wants, for those rare times--there are options for that 'need'.
But *I* want smaller vehicles everywhere. The far majority of vehicles I see on the road are IMO needlessly large for their common use (most often one person, sometimes two persons, the vehicle largely empty).
but that's exactly it. you have choice when it comes to small vehicles, because there's tons of them. If a smart car isn'd quite clownish enough then there's tons of other little cars you can squeeze into like the Honda Fit, the fiesta/mazda 2, Yaris. But if you want to go big for the specific purpose of carrying a lot of stuff because you actually have a large family or want to turn a modern van into camping/liftstyle vehicle, you don't have many options that are smaller than a sprinter but larger than a minivan, unless you want to drive a plumbers van.
Gord96BRG
4th July 2020, 17:52
But if you want to go big for the specific purpose of carrying a lot of stuff because you actually have a large family or want to turn a modern van into camping/liftstyle vehicle, you don't have many options that are smaller than a sprinter but larger than a minivan, unless you want to drive a plumbers van.
When it comes to voting with your wallet to influence demand and drive product offerings from manufacturers - buying second hand used vehicles doesn't count as a vote. You only get a vote if you buy new. The manufacturers absolutely don't care what you want when you buy used.
Dry Martini
4th July 2020, 18:21
Exactly. However, people are free to choose, and in North America are voting with their wallets for larger vehicles mostly.
BUT - what is unfair is the vehicle classifications for emissions and safety regulations. Back in the late 70s, early 80s, the US NHTSA granted exemptions to light trucks as work vehicles, and they didn't have to meet the same safety (bumper, side impact) or emissions regulations as passenger vehicles.
Fine, if they're work vehicles - but now that 98% of trucks and truck-based SUVs and many CUVs, classified as work vehicles, are in reality just passenger vehicles, they should all have to meet the same regulations as passenger vehicles. Bumper faces 16-20" off the ground, headlights 20-24" above ground. Trucks are pretty much all ugly anyway, so no problem having them meet the same regulations as passenger vehicles. That would ban lifted bro trucks, too - jack em back down, boys! Emissions regulations - hell yeah, no exemptions for trucks just for being trucks, they're passenger vehicles.
I dont care about bumper or headlight height. Want it raised on a truck or lower on a sports car? Fine. The Euro regs have ruined the looks of modern cars? Fine.
Are you saying modern SUV/CUVs do not meet current emissions regulations?
Gord96BRG
4th July 2020, 18:31
Are you saying modern SUV/CUVs do not meet current emissions regulations?
They do meet current emissions regulations - but those regulations for light trucks are much more lenient than those for passenger cars. Small SUV like Ford Escape, midsize crossover like Nissan Murano, minivan like Toyota Sienna, Large pickup truck like Silverado, are ALL classed as light-duty trucks.
Here's an EPA paper from August 2012, EPA and NHTSA Set Standards to Reduce Greenhouse Gases and Improve Fuel Economy for Model Years 2017-2025 Cars and Light Trucks (https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/P100EZ7C.PDF?Dockey=P100EZ7C.PDF) - pages 4, 5, 6 highlight the differences in regulations for passenger cars and "light trucks".
look 171
4th July 2020, 19:38
Gord, I bet the numbers are right in the middle with it dipping toward work related on light duty trucks that are used as work related vehicles vs ones being used primary as passenger carriers. I bet that's true in large crowded cities like LA, SF and NY including Vancouver and Toronto. That number, more then likely, will dip the other way in the larger western states or provinces? How a truck used for work is difficult to define.
jayhawk
4th July 2020, 20:27
Every time I see this thread title "manufacturers aren't listening, we want bigger vehicles.", I think "no we don't". I can understand the OP's wants, for those rare times--there are options for that 'need'.
But *I* want smaller vehicles everywhere. The far majority of vehicles I see on the road are IMO needlessly large for their common use (most often one person, sometimes two persons, the vehicle largely empty).
Yeah, that was my thought as well when I saw the topic.
I do understand if someone needs a big vehicle, but wish there were more smaller vehicles. I walked past a Chevy dealer a couple months ago and there were rows and rows of big SUV's (like 60-70 of them) and about 12 cars of any kind.
amazingjason
4th July 2020, 23:57
If Ford built an F150 sedan with a big V8, an interior as large as the truck, a big trunk, and an isolated, quiet ride, they might sell well. Hoovie isn’t the only one who likes land yachts. Regulations have made trucks the only things that offer these attributes, which defeats the purpose since an F150 sedan would be a bit more efficient and the truck is a best seller.
Also, our AWD 2005 Escalade ESV 6.0 polluted much less than our 1991 Miata according to numbers from smog checks so don’t feel too smug.
Jason
Orangello
6th July 2020, 17:09
Another thing that pushed the mass adoption of "trucks" as passenger vehicles was how businesses could depreciate "work trucks" compared to sedans. A big enough truck/SUV was treated like equipment, while a nice sedan got depreciated as "listed property" (no section 179 or bonus or quickie depreciation, basically).
STOP BEING SO CREEPY!
:p I will drive faster then. ;)
BetweenMiatas
6th July 2020, 19:29
:p I will drive faster then. ;)
Hmmm... ok, but that's not really what I meant. :D
YP515
6th July 2020, 23:48
I heard the pizza in Dahmer's icebox set the cops back a bit.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/76/f7/c876f76a19bd4f1c19904a6ee01ea9c2.jpg
Save The Manual Wagons!
7th July 2020, 09:56
If a smart car isn'd quite clownish enough then there's tons of other little cars you can squeeze into like the Honda Fit, the fiesta/mazda 2, Yaris.
Guess again. All of those cars are discontinued in the US except for the Fit. The Yaris will not be sold here after the 2020 model year.
Aside from a rapidly disappearing pool of a few Asian cars, small cars are dead in the US. The domestics have given up on cars all together aside from the pony cars. Now everything is a jacked up bloated crossover or SUV.
Orangello
7th July 2020, 15:39
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/76/f7/c876f76a19bd4f1c19904a6ee01ea9c2.jpg
I was really thinking of the classic "Dahmer-nose pizza".
twowheeled
7th July 2020, 16:35
Guess again. All of those cars are discontinued in the US except for the Fit. The Yaris will not be sold here after the 2020 model year.
Aside from a rapidly disappearing pool of a few Asian cars, small cars are dead in the US. The domestics have given up on cars all together aside from the pony cars. Now everything is a jacked up bloated crossover or SUV.
It might be a reflection on the crumbling infrastructure in a lot of markets.
Save The Manual Wagons!
7th July 2020, 16:50
It might be a reflection on the crumbling infrastructure in a lot of markets.
Nah. Cheap gas and people wanting to "sit up high." Americans have never liked small cars anyway. We buy them by the pound. :rolleyes:
People have surely been complaining about bad roads since the first dirt path, but I don't think they're any worse than they were 10, 20, or more years ago. If anything, today's stiffer platforms make them less of a nuisance than ever before. My dad's '79 Camaro (t-tops) and my old C4 Corvette (targa) were both such wet noodles that they crashed and banged over the smallest ripple in the road.
Dry Martini
7th July 2020, 16:59
Nah. Cheap gas and people wanting to "sit up high." Americans have never liked small cars anyway. We buy them by the pound. :rolleyes:
People have surely been complaining about bad roads since the first dirt path, but I don't think they're any worse than they were 10, 20, or more years ago. If anything, today's stiffer platforms make them less of a nuisance than ever before. My dad's '79 Camaro (t-tops) and my old C4 Corvette (targa) were both such wet noodles that they crashed and banged over the smallest ripple in the road.
Thank you. I have long been thought the same way when I hear people talking about the condition of the roads.
YP515
7th July 2020, 17:01
I was really thinking of the classic "Dahmer-nose pizza".
I had that first then reposted.
01CryBlue
8th July 2020, 11:25
It might be a reflection on the crumbling infrastructure in a lot of markets.
I think maybe that's part of it, but we have great roads around here and you can't find a car but for the sea of full size trucks and SUV/CUVs.
One thing I've noticed the past ten years is that the pickup trucks are now driven like sports cars. I've concluded, unscientifically, that those guys from 30 years ago who gave Audi and BMW the image of the "arsehole yuppie aggressive driver" have quit with the Euro sports sedans and coupes and are now buying pickup trucks.
Kirill
8th July 2020, 18:02
When it comes to voting with your wallet to influence demand and drive product offerings from manufacturers - buying second hand used vehicles doesn't count as a vote. You only get a vote if you buy new. The manufacturers absolutely don't care what you want when you buy used.
Not so fast: if a vehicle is not popular on the second hand market the residual value would suffer. Meaning that it will be harder for the manufacturer to offer competetive lease terms. Which is not good for initial sales. Or they will have to heavily subsidize leases which is not good for the bottom line.
Gammaradiation
9th July 2020, 21:21
I will pile on your rant to say that I sat in the back seat of everything that offered a 3rd row at the auto show last year, and none of them were comfortable for an adult.
Suburban?
No way you sat in a suburban.
3rd row is usually reserved for children. I grew up with an Astro Van as the family vehicle. THAT was a 3rd row. Many a sleep on family road trips back there.
Speaking of vans, no way you sat in a modern "mini" van. I've sat in modern "mini" vans and they are certainly spacious enough for an adult.
Kirill
10th July 2020, 01:32
I will pile on your rant to say that I sat in the back seat of everything that offered a 3rd row at the auto show last year, and none of them were comfortable for an adult.
1st gen Sequoia has real seats in the 3rd row. But these are old-fashioned leave-them-home-if-you-want-cargo-space kinda deal. The newfangled fold-flat seats you see in SUVs now are good at folding flat but suck at being seats.
BetweenMiatas
10th July 2020, 11:07
Suburban?
No way you sat in a suburban.
3rd row is usually reserved for children. I grew up with an Astro Van as the family vehicle. THAT was a 3rd row. Many a sleep on family road trips back there.
Speaking of vans, no way you sat in a modern "mini" van. I've sat in modern "mini" vans and they are certainly spacious enough for an adult.
Oookay. Spacious enough, maybe, but I was looking for comfort.
I can't remember if I've sat in the third row of a Suburban. My MIL has one, even if there weren't any at the show, but I don't think I've sat back there. Her Excursion had a decent third row.
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